Discussion:
Which bows to upgrade and which ones not to upgrade...
(too old to reply)
Clay
2003-12-24 19:39:00 UTC
Permalink
People have been bringing this up in a few threads in the past couple of
days, and being interested myself, I went over to
www.arreatsummit.com/diablo2exp/ and started looking at unique bows and what
they turn into.

Rather than laboriously type out the math and explanation for every single
bow, I'll just do that for a couple of extreme examples and give the
synopsis for all the ones afterwards.

The bad type of bow to upgrade: Buriza.

(I'll plagerize my own post from a different thread instead of typing it up
from scratch ^ ^)

....

Why a buriza? I understand it's a powerful weapon, but the mod that gives
the goofy damage is the +max per character level. A regular ballista's
average damage is 44 (132 with 200% extra), and the colossus crossbow's is
61.5 (184.5 with 200% extra). The enhanced percent is the only thing that
affects that average damage, so a perfect 200% buriza upgraded will only add
52.5 damage to your max *at best* and cost another 50+ strength, when the
thing is all ready doing 300 something before you even upgrade it.

Look at it this way: those 50+ points in dex will provide a 50% boost on a
regular ballista, which would add 22 damage to 66 average. On a colossus
crossbow, 50 less dex leaves it's average at 61.5.
....

So the noob cannon really only becomes one once upgraded. The more
dexterity you have, however, the more able the colossus xbow will be to
eventually catch up with and surpass a ballista, but there are only so many
stat points to go around, so overall it's still a waste. The purpose of
upgrading is to get a BIG damage boost, not a minor one :-)

Now, let's look at a good bow to upgrade: Witchwild String

Two-Hand Damage: (32-35) To (75-81) (53.5-58 Avg)
Required Level: 39
Required Strength: 65
Required Dexterity: 80
Base Weapon Speed: [0]
+150-170% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Fires Magic Arrows [Level 20]
2% Chance To Cast Level 5 Amplify Damage On Striking
+ (1 Per Character Level) 1-99 % Deadly Strike (Based On Character Level)
All Resistances +40
Sockets (2)
(Only Spawns In Patch 1.10 or later)

Base damage for a short siege bow is 13 to 30 (21.5 Avg), and for a Diamond
Bow it's 33 to 40 (36.5 Avg) with 89 strength/132 dexterity for
requirements. So, without even having to do any real math, you can tell the
witchwild upgrades very well, with it's new minimum damage becoming higher
than it's previous maxium damage for only 24 more strength. This is the
ideal kind of upgrade.

(The real math, however, is 35-81 going to 89-108 for those of you who are
curious).

I'll save myself some work and just give the names of the bows that get the
biggest boost and concentrate on the more borderline ones (all damage is
based on a perfect % for the bow). And, for purposes of keeping this short,
we'll assume any strength requirement under 100 is within the range of what
zons end up with anyway for various armors, so keep that in mind:

Skystrike (edge bow) 21-57///(spider bow) 69-150 (25 str to 64 str)

Riphook (razor bow) 25-70///(blade bow) 63-123 (0 to 76 strength)

Kuko (cedar bow) 28-81///(shadow bow) 42-162 (53 to 52 strength) req. goes
down

Endlesshail (double bow) 35-83///(great bow) 38-166 (58 to 127 strength)
pretty non-amazing mods for that big an increase in requirements

Cliffkiller (large siege bow) w/o added damage 33-138///(crusader bow) w/o
added damage 49.5-208 (80 to 95 strength) overall it's a nice boost for only
15 more strength

Magewrath (rune bow) w/o added damage 40-87///(ward bow) w/o added damage
50-132.5 (73 to 72 strength) required strength goes down one point, and
great mods. This one would be a great bow to upgrade

Langer Briser (arbalest) w/o added max damage 42-81///(pellet bow) w/o
added max damage 84-219 (52-83 strength required) Pretty good little boost,
and the mods are pretty handy once it's upgraded.

Pus Spitter (siege crossbow) 64 to 134///(gorgon crossbow) 80 to 278
(requirements are -60%, so 32 strength goes to 47) This one's actually a
surprisingly good upgrade.

Now, let's look at the remaining two bows:

Goldie. 35-175 starting out as a gothic, and requiring 37 more strength for
134 as a hydra, you get 35-238. It's certainly nowhere near as bad as the
buriza, but it's certainly nowhere near as good as a witchwild, either ^ ^
This is a borderline upgrade, especially considering that your minimum stays
the same.

And finally, the demon machine. As a chu-ko-nu, w/o the 66 to max damage,
it has 31-71 damage. As a demon crossbow, w/o the 66 to max damage, it has
58 to 89. As a demon crossbow, it's strength requirement goes up from 80 to
141. That's 61 less points in dexterity, for a very marginal boost. I'd
say that this one isn't worth it.

So, in review, most bows make good upgrades, a couple are excellant ones
(magewrath, witchwild), some are actually worse (buriza and demon machine),
and a few are marginal or neglible in benefits (goldstrike, endlesshail).

Cheers,
-Clay
Bingain
2003-12-24 20:48:04 UTC
Permalink
You didn't include Lycander's Aim... come on, dont be lazy.

I think it'll be a great upgrade. I mean, a GM LA should really be able to
kill a thing in hell. Of course, for an upgrade, I'd also look at the ED%
on the weapon if it has a varying mods).

Bing
Post by Clay
People have been bringing this up in a few threads in the past couple of
days, and being interested myself, I went over to
www.arreatsummit.com/diablo2exp/ and started looking at unique bows and what
they turn into.
Rather than laboriously type out the math and explanation for every single
bow, I'll just do that for a couple of extreme examples and give the
synopsis for all the ones afterwards.
The bad type of bow to upgrade: Buriza.
(I'll plagerize my own post from a different thread instead of typing it up
from scratch ^ ^)
....
Why a buriza? I understand it's a powerful weapon, but the mod that gives
the goofy damage is the +max per character level. A regular ballista's
average damage is 44 (132 with 200% extra), and the colossus crossbow's is
61.5 (184.5 with 200% extra). The enhanced percent is the only thing that
affects that average damage, so a perfect 200% buriza upgraded will only add
52.5 damage to your max *at best* and cost another 50+ strength, when the
thing is all ready doing 300 something before you even upgrade it.
Look at it this way: those 50+ points in dex will provide a 50% boost on a
regular ballista, which would add 22 damage to 66 average. On a colossus
crossbow, 50 less dex leaves it's average at 61.5.
....
So the noob cannon really only becomes one once upgraded. The more
dexterity you have, however, the more able the colossus xbow will be to
eventually catch up with and surpass a ballista, but there are only so many
stat points to go around, so overall it's still a waste. The purpose of
upgrading is to get a BIG damage boost, not a minor one :-)
Now, let's look at a good bow to upgrade: Witchwild String
Two-Hand Damage: (32-35) To (75-81) (53.5-58 Avg)
Required Level: 39
Required Strength: 65
Required Dexterity: 80
Base Weapon Speed: [0]
+150-170% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Fires Magic Arrows [Level 20]
2% Chance To Cast Level 5 Amplify Damage On Striking
+ (1 Per Character Level) 1-99 % Deadly Strike (Based On Character Level)
All Resistances +40
Sockets (2)
(Only Spawns In Patch 1.10 or later)
Base damage for a short siege bow is 13 to 30 (21.5 Avg), and for a Diamond
Bow it's 33 to 40 (36.5 Avg) with 89 strength/132 dexterity for
requirements. So, without even having to do any real math, you can tell the
witchwild upgrades very well, with it's new minimum damage becoming higher
than it's previous maxium damage for only 24 more strength. This is the
ideal kind of upgrade.
(The real math, however, is 35-81 going to 89-108 for those of you who are
curious).
I'll save myself some work and just give the names of the bows that get the
biggest boost and concentrate on the more borderline ones (all damage is
based on a perfect % for the bow). And, for purposes of keeping this short,
we'll assume any strength requirement under 100 is within the range of what
Skystrike (edge bow) 21-57///(spider bow) 69-150 (25 str to 64 str)
Riphook (razor bow) 25-70///(blade bow) 63-123 (0 to 76 strength)
Kuko (cedar bow) 28-81///(shadow bow) 42-162 (53 to 52 strength) req. goes
down
Endlesshail (double bow) 35-83///(great bow) 38-166 (58 to 127 strength)
pretty non-amazing mods for that big an increase in requirements
Cliffkiller (large siege bow) w/o added damage 33-138///(crusader bow) w/o
added damage 49.5-208 (80 to 95 strength) overall it's a nice boost for only
15 more strength
Magewrath (rune bow) w/o added damage 40-87///(ward bow) w/o added damage
50-132.5 (73 to 72 strength) required strength goes down one point, and
great mods. This one would be a great bow to upgrade
Langer Briser (arbalest) w/o added max damage 42-81///(pellet bow) w/o
added max damage 84-219 (52-83 strength required) Pretty good little boost,
and the mods are pretty handy once it's upgraded.
Pus Spitter (siege crossbow) 64 to 134///(gorgon crossbow) 80 to 278
(requirements are -60%, so 32 strength goes to 47) This one's actually a
surprisingly good upgrade.
Goldie. 35-175 starting out as a gothic, and requiring 37 more strength for
134 as a hydra, you get 35-238. It's certainly nowhere near as bad as the
buriza, but it's certainly nowhere near as good as a witchwild, either ^ ^
This is a borderline upgrade, especially considering that your minimum stays
the same.
And finally, the demon machine. As a chu-ko-nu, w/o the 66 to max damage,
it has 31-71 damage. As a demon crossbow, w/o the 66 to max damage, it has
58 to 89. As a demon crossbow, it's strength requirement goes up from 80 to
141. That's 61 less points in dexterity, for a very marginal boost. I'd
say that this one isn't worth it.
So, in review, most bows make good upgrades, a couple are excellant ones
(magewrath, witchwild), some are actually worse (buriza and demon machine),
and a few are marginal or neglible in benefits (goldstrike, endlesshail).
Cheers,
-Clay
Clay
2003-12-24 22:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bingain
You didn't include Lycander's Aim... come on, dont be lazy.
I think it'll be a great upgrade. I mean, a GM LA should really be able to
kill a thing in hell. Of course, for an upgrade, I'd also look at the ED%
on the weapon if it has a varying mods).
Bing
Eh... I forgot Lycander's... whoops.

Lycander's (ceremonial bow) w/o damage mod 57-123///(grand matron) w/o
damage mod 42-216 (73 strength to 108 strength).

Overall, I'd say it makes a good upgrade, even with the 108 required
strength.

-Clay
HCwest Pete Fella
2003-12-24 23:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bingain
You didn't include Lycander's Aim... come on, dont be lazy.
I think it'll be a great upgrade. I mean, a GM LA should really be
able to kill a thing in hell. Of course, for an upgrade, I'd also
look at the ED% on the weapon if it has a varying mods).
Bing
My zon used a upgraded Lycanders. It's one of the nicer bows out there. :)
Babe Bridou
2003-12-25 12:29:24 UTC
Permalink
You didn't mention Goldstrike's most valuable assets: its %ED against demons
and undead.

Boosting it makes its damage skyrocket against most of the baddies.
All in all, I would say... don't hesitate a second with goldstrike,
especially if you play a hybrid (for whom str reqs mean nothing).

And also, the very interesting thing with witchwild string is that its
display damage is far inferior to the punishment this bow can deal, thanks
to amp damage and high percent deadly strike.
Post by Clay
People have been bringing this up in a few threads in the past couple of
days, and being interested myself, I went over to
www.arreatsummit.com/diablo2exp/ and started looking at unique bows and what
they turn into.
Rather than laboriously type out the math and explanation for every single
bow, I'll just do that for a couple of extreme examples and give the
synopsis for all the ones afterwards.
The bad type of bow to upgrade: Buriza.
(I'll plagerize my own post from a different thread instead of typing it up
from scratch ^ ^)
....
Why a buriza? I understand it's a powerful weapon, but the mod that gives
the goofy damage is the +max per character level. A regular ballista's
average damage is 44 (132 with 200% extra), and the colossus crossbow's is
61.5 (184.5 with 200% extra). The enhanced percent is the only thing that
affects that average damage, so a perfect 200% buriza upgraded will only add
52.5 damage to your max *at best* and cost another 50+ strength, when the
thing is all ready doing 300 something before you even upgrade it.
Look at it this way: those 50+ points in dex will provide a 50% boost on a
regular ballista, which would add 22 damage to 66 average. On a colossus
crossbow, 50 less dex leaves it's average at 61.5.
....
So the noob cannon really only becomes one once upgraded. The more
dexterity you have, however, the more able the colossus xbow will be to
eventually catch up with and surpass a ballista, but there are only so many
stat points to go around, so overall it's still a waste. The purpose of
upgrading is to get a BIG damage boost, not a minor one :-)
Now, let's look at a good bow to upgrade: Witchwild String
Two-Hand Damage: (32-35) To (75-81) (53.5-58 Avg)
Required Level: 39
Required Strength: 65
Required Dexterity: 80
Base Weapon Speed: [0]
+150-170% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Fires Magic Arrows [Level 20]
2% Chance To Cast Level 5 Amplify Damage On Striking
+ (1 Per Character Level) 1-99 % Deadly Strike (Based On Character Level)
All Resistances +40
Sockets (2)
(Only Spawns In Patch 1.10 or later)
Base damage for a short siege bow is 13 to 30 (21.5 Avg), and for a Diamond
Bow it's 33 to 40 (36.5 Avg) with 89 strength/132 dexterity for
requirements. So, without even having to do any real math, you can tell the
witchwild upgrades very well, with it's new minimum damage becoming higher
than it's previous maxium damage for only 24 more strength. This is the
ideal kind of upgrade.
(The real math, however, is 35-81 going to 89-108 for those of you who are
curious).
I'll save myself some work and just give the names of the bows that get the
biggest boost and concentrate on the more borderline ones (all damage is
based on a perfect % for the bow). And, for purposes of keeping this short,
we'll assume any strength requirement under 100 is within the range of what
Skystrike (edge bow) 21-57///(spider bow) 69-150 (25 str to 64 str)
Riphook (razor bow) 25-70///(blade bow) 63-123 (0 to 76 strength)
Kuko (cedar bow) 28-81///(shadow bow) 42-162 (53 to 52 strength) req. goes
down
Endlesshail (double bow) 35-83///(great bow) 38-166 (58 to 127 strength)
pretty non-amazing mods for that big an increase in requirements
Cliffkiller (large siege bow) w/o added damage 33-138///(crusader bow) w/o
added damage 49.5-208 (80 to 95 strength) overall it's a nice boost for only
15 more strength
Magewrath (rune bow) w/o added damage 40-87///(ward bow) w/o added damage
50-132.5 (73 to 72 strength) required strength goes down one point, and
great mods. This one would be a great bow to upgrade
Langer Briser (arbalest) w/o added max damage 42-81///(pellet bow) w/o
added max damage 84-219 (52-83 strength required) Pretty good little boost,
and the mods are pretty handy once it's upgraded.
Pus Spitter (siege crossbow) 64 to 134///(gorgon crossbow) 80 to 278
(requirements are -60%, so 32 strength goes to 47) This one's actually a
surprisingly good upgrade.
Goldie. 35-175 starting out as a gothic, and requiring 37 more strength for
134 as a hydra, you get 35-238. It's certainly nowhere near as bad as the
buriza, but it's certainly nowhere near as good as a witchwild, either ^ ^
This is a borderline upgrade, especially considering that your minimum stays
the same.
And finally, the demon machine. As a chu-ko-nu, w/o the 66 to max damage,
it has 31-71 damage. As a demon crossbow, w/o the 66 to max damage, it has
58 to 89. As a demon crossbow, it's strength requirement goes up from 80 to
141. That's 61 less points in dexterity, for a very marginal boost. I'd
say that this one isn't worth it.
So, in review, most bows make good upgrades, a couple are excellant ones
(magewrath, witchwild), some are actually worse (buriza and demon machine),
and a few are marginal or neglible in benefits (goldstrike, endlesshail).
Cheers,
-Clay
Clay
2003-12-25 17:15:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Babe Bridou
And also, the very interesting thing with witchwild string is that its
display damage is far inferior to the punishment this bow can deal, thanks
to amp damage and high percent deadly strike.
Yeah... whitchwild is a lying bow, in that sense. It's easily giving out
twice the damage it says it does. Upgraded mine last night and finally took
my zon into hell, and it works nicely. The level 20 magic arrows work on
ghosts very well, and it's handy not to have to use arrows for the very
tough critters.

-Clay
Will Lutz
2003-12-26 06:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clay
Yeah... whitchwild is a lying bow, in that sense. It's easily giving out
twice the damage it says it does. Upgraded mine last night and finally took
my zon into hell, and it works nicely. The level 20 magic arrows work on
ghosts very well, and it's handy not to have to use arrows for the very
tough critters.
You do realize that Deadly Strike is calculated after Critical Strike and
they exclude each other?

Chance for Double Damage = CS + (DS/100)*(100-CS)

-Will
Clay
2003-12-26 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Lutz
You do realize that Deadly Strike is calculated after Critical Strike and
they exclude each other?
Yes.

-Clay

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