Bone Spear or Spirit?

[Oliver Wenzel]

Hi,

have been playing with my new Marrowwalk boots and wonder, if I should go
for Bone Spear or Spirit.
With my saved 13 skill points, my level 88 necro gets the following damage
numbers:

max Spear: lvl(17)25 dmg 988-1050 mana 13 Spirit lvl9 mg 613-688
max Spirit: lvl(16)22 dmg 1255-1359 mana 22.5 Spear lvl12 dmg 493-530

17/16 are the hard assigned skill points, 25/22 with +skills items.

So, would you go Spear or Spirit?

Regards,

Oliver

[Patrick Vervoorn]

Post by Oliver Wenzel
Hi,
have been playing with my new Marrowwalk boots and wonder, if I should go
for Bone Spear or Spirit.
With my saved 13 skill points, my level 88 necro gets the following damage
max Spear: lvl(17)25 dmg 988-1050 mana 13 Spirit lvl9 mg 613-688
max Spirit: lvl(16)22 dmg 1255-1359 mana 22.5 Spear lvl12 dmg 493-530
17/16 are the hard assigned skill points, 25/22 with +skills items.
So, would you go Spear or Spirit?

It depends on what you want... As with all things in the game, or in life
in general.

You've figured out for yourself the damage you deal with either route, and
you are aware (as I read in another post of yours) of the fact Bone Spear
pierces (so it can potentially deal it's damage to more foes), and Bone
Spirit does not: it only hits a single target.

Anyway, in my opinion, _if_ you rely on Corpse Explosion for the majority
of your kills (my necro does, in any case), you want a body as quickly as
possible, and that would point more towards the single target/larger
damage Bone Spirit.

If you rely on your skellies/revives killing the foes, you would probably
want to be able to deal less damage to more foes, so Bone Spear would seem
more logical.

You've also discounted putting more points in other skills? Don't forget
the (rumoured) effectiveness of Dim Vision, or putting more points in your
Bone Armour?

Post by Oliver Wenzel
Regards,
Oliver

Regards,

Patrick.

[Jack Hollis]

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:36:49 +0000 (UTC), Patrick Vervoorn

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
Anyway, in my opinion, _if_ you rely on Corpse Explosion for the majority
of your kills (my necro does, in any case), you want a body as quickly as
possible, and that would point more towards the single target/larger
damage Bone Spirit.

I agree. My main killing agent is CE and I don't use either BSpear or
BSpirit that much. I decided to put my points in Bone Spirit because I
mainly use it as added damage for single kills like Act Bosses, those
difficult to kill unique stone skin monsters or PIs. It can also be
useful to get that first body.

With the Marrowwalk feature (bug) the magic damage is pretty good and
BSpirit certainly helps.

[Oliver Wenzel]

Post by Patrick Vervoorn

Post by Oliver Wenzel
Hi,
have been playing with my new Marrowwalk boots and wonder, if I should
go for Bone Spear or Spirit.
With my saved 13 skill points, my level 88 necro gets the following
max Spear: lvl(17)25 dmg 988-1050 mana 13 Spirit lvl9 mg 613-688
max Spirit: lvl(16)22 dmg 1255-1359 mana 22.5 Spear lvl12 dmg 493-530
17/16 are the hard assigned skill points, 25/22 with +skills items.
So, would you go Spear or Spirit?

It depends on what you want... As with all things in the game, or in
life in general.
Anyway, in my opinion, _if_ you rely on Corpse Explosion for the
majority of your kills (my necro does, in any case), you want a body
as quickly as possible, and that would point more towards the single
target/larger damage Bone Spirit.

I have currently, with +skills, about 13 points in CE and don't see a real
point in maxing it. If I need to kill more foes, I just spam more CEs on
them.

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
You've also discounted putting more points in other skills? Don't
forget the (rumoured) effectiveness of Dim Vision, or putting more
points in your Bone Armour?

I don't use Bone Armour so far, haven't really needed it. My necro has
finished Act4 in Hell w/o problems and I guess I'll need Dim Vision a lot
in Act5.
With +skills, I have about 7-8 points in each of the curses, especially Dim
Vision and Attract. AmpDamage and Decrep are a must, too.
I normally do several Attracts and AmpDamage on larger groups, let my merc
hack away and start the CE chain when the first one falls.

Regards,

Oliver

[Patrick Vervoorn]

Post by Oliver Wenzel

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
Anyway, in my opinion, _if_ you rely on Corpse Explosion for the
majority of your kills (my necro does, in any case), you want a body
as quickly as possible, and that would point more towards the single
target/larger damage Bone Spirit.

I have currently, with +skills, about 13 points in CE and don't see a real
point in maxing it. If I need to kill more foes, I just spam more CEs on
them.

More points just adds to the radius, meaning you hit more monsters with
each explosion. All up to personal preference of course.

Post by Oliver Wenzel

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
You've also discounted putting more points in other skills? Don't
forget the (rumoured) effectiveness of Dim Vision, or putting more
points in your Bone Armour?

I don't use Bone Armour so far, haven't really needed it. My necro has
finished Act4 in Hell w/o problems and I guess I'll need Dim Vision a lot
in Act5.

I usually also forget to cast the Marrowwalk-synergised Bone Armor, but it
sure is a nice 'free' extra few hundred points of life.

I still have 25 unassigned skill points on my ladder necro, and still
don't know where to put 'em. He's pretty much invincible as is, and the
only things he has problems with (a boss-pack of gloams combined with a
boss-pack of undead stygian dolls at the entrace of the Throne of
Destruction), is not something I foresee I can fix with assigning those
points. Dim Vision would've helped against the Gloams, maybe, but it
wouldn't have stopped the dolls, and especially not their death-explosion.

Post by Oliver Wenzel
With +skills, I have about 7-8 points in each of the curses, especially Dim
Vision and Attract. AmpDamage and Decrep are a must, too.
I normally do several Attracts and AmpDamage on larger groups, let my merc
hack away and start the CE chain when the first one falls.

That's also a strategy. Mine is quite similar: I just AD the pack, and
fire away a load of Bone Spirits. When the first corpse falls, start the
CE chain.

Patrick.

[BrianK]

For PvM, I'd go Spear for sure.

Spear pierces, has lower mana cost, gets to the target quicker, and has
slightly lower (single target) damage.

Your merc, minions, and curses should be pretty good at pinning things in
place, so the tracking ability of Spirit is mostly wasted.

Don't know what you are using as a weapon, but a 'Whited' +3 spear wand on
switch will give a pretty good jump in damage... as long as you're prepared
to lose a skelly or two.

fwiw, BK

[Oliver Wenzel]

Hi,

Post by BrianK
For PvM, I'd go Spear for sure.
Spear pierces, has lower mana cost, gets to the target quicker, and
has slightly lower (single target) damage.
Your merc, minions, and curses should be pretty good at pinning things
in place, so the tracking ability of Spirit is mostly wasted.
Don't know what you are using as a weapon, but a 'Whited' +3 spear
wand on switch will give a pretty good jump in damage... as long as
you're prepared to lose a skelly or two.

I have a WHITE wand with +2 Bone Spear, so with other +skills I get a +25
Bone Spear (with 17 hard points). Another 3 points will get me to +28.

I'll have to check the Bone Armour thing. 620 additional life points sure
would be nice - about 950 normal life + 620 isn't so bad?

I guess I'll go for Bone Spear. With the synergies, Bone Spirit goes up
quite nicely, too.

Thanx,

Oliver

[u4ick]

I like Bone Spirit because it hunts down a target. You can clear a room
one and a half screens away. I have taken down Diablo without ever
seeing him. Not exciting but safe and in HC that counts.

u4ick

[Jack Hollis]

Post by u4ick
I have taken down Diablo without ever
seeing him. Not exciting but safe and in HC that counts.

LOL, I remember doing that in Normal. For whatever reason, Diablo in
Normal was the most difficult task my Necro had to face. D made a
total waste of my skells and Merc and I was left alone. I lured him
out of the center and went back down one of the alleys towards the
front entrance and started spamming BSpirits. I couldn't see D but he
was taking damage. He eventually came towards the alley but I just
went to the other side. It took a while, but I got the job done.

By the time I got to NM and Hell, Diablo was a lot easier.

[SjoerdH]

Post by Oliver Wenzel
Hi,
have been playing with my new Marrowwalk boots and wonder, if I should go
for Bone Spear or Spirit.
With my saved 13 skill points, my level 88 necro gets the following damage
max Spear: lvl(17)25 dmg 988-1050 mana 13 Spirit lvl9 mg 613-688
max Spirit: lvl(16)22 dmg 1255-1359 mana 22.5 Spear lvl12 dmg 493-530
17/16 are the hard assigned skill points, 25/22 with +skills items.
So, would you go Spear or Spirit?

I almost always go for spear. Spirit starts off with higher damage, but
spear has higher synergies and it's base damage also takes some leaps at
very high levels. At a certain point it should deal more damage then
spirit, though most necromancers don't reach that point.

Also, spear is a bit cheaper. With both skills maxed and decent
equipment spear will easily out do spirit when it comes to damage/mana.
Add to that the fact that spear pierces and you know why I go for spear,
it just does more for less.

That doesn't mean spirit isn't good. For most people it'll deal a bit
more damage and it tracks enemies. I still use it often against mean
bosses (Diablo being the most obvious example).

Oh, and I just remembered that white adds more to spear, so with a good
white wand your spear will take another leap. Well, in the end either
skill will work and you have to choose between the ease of a homing
missile or the slightly harder to use, but potentially 'stronger' spear.

Sjoerd

[Oliver Wenzel]

Hi,

Post by SjoerdH

Post by Oliver Wenzel
Hi,
max Spear: lvl(17)25 dmg 988-1050 mana 13 Spirit lvl9 mg 613-688
max Spirit: lvl(16)22 dmg 1255-1359 mana 22.5 Spear lvl12 dmg 493-530
17/16 are the hard assigned skill points, 25/22 with +skills items.
So, would you go Spear or Spirit?

I almost always go for spear. Spirit starts off with higher damage,
but spear has higher synergies and it's base damage also takes some
leaps at very high levels. At a certain point it should deal more
damage then spirit, though most necromancers don't reach that point.

I have a WHITE wand with +2 Bone Spear. So I have a total of +8 to Spear.
And I currently don't even use my SoJ (barb has it). So, with a +3 Spear
WHITE wand and the SoJ, I'd already be at +30 Bone Spear.

Is there any document showing Bone Spear/Spirit levels above 20?

I guess the real plus for Bone Spear is the lower mana usage.

Thanx,

Oliver

[SjoerdH]

Post by Oliver Wenzel
I have a WHITE wand with +2 Bone Spear. So I have a total of +8 to Spear.
And I currently don't even use my SoJ (barb has it). So, with a +3 Spear
WHITE wand and the SoJ, I'd already be at +30 Bone Spear.
Is there any document showing Bone Spear/Spirit levels above 20?

There's been some discussion about it in either agd or agd2 in the past,
but you could always use http://www.d2items.com/skills.php to check out
specific situations. I made up an extremely twinked character to get
some nice numbers. :-D The following is of course not easy to build and
the damage is unmodified. Magic resistance isn't as big a factor as
physical resistance though. Well, on to some numbers:

+3 spear +3 spirit +3 teeth white wand
+3 p&b +3 spirit +3 spear +3 teeth shield
+2 necro armor
+3 p&b armor
+3 p&b ammy
+1 skills belt
+1 skills ring
+1 skills ring
10 p&b skillers
(anything I'm missing?)
marrowwalks (exploiting the charges bug)
max teeth, spear, spirit, wall

Teeth:
24 teeth @ 1502-1868 damage for 29 mana
44832 maximum damage potential (1546 damage/mana)
Not likely, but it's pretty decent against mobs. The problem is that it
doesn't kill quickly. It kills loads of things at a slow speed instead
when you could just spear and CE a few times. But yeah, it's useable.

Spear:
7299-7652 (7475.5 avg) for 20.5 mana
average of 365 damage/mana

Spirit:
6514-6922 (6718 avg) for 38 mana
average 177 damage/mana

Post by Oliver Wenzel
I guess the real plus for Bone Spear is the lower mana usage.

Depends on your character. In PvM a boner can run out of mana quickly so
it's a big plus, but in large group games it's usually better to kill a
few things quickly then to kill everything. Just thought I'd point out
that there's more to spear the the piercing effect. :-D