Necro cant pass Ancients (hell)

Post by Musty
Hi All,
I am playing single player. I have a lvl83 necro. I cannot get even close to
passing the Ancients in hell mode. I have 8 revives, fire golem (maxed out
mastery) and an act2 defensive aura merc. Any tips or links on how to
approach this battle with a Necro? I am about ready to give up and start a
different character!

Where did you put your other skill points? Maxing Golem Mastery and the
Fire Golem creates a Golem-mancer, and Golems are notoriously weak
summons, even if you max 'em.

You should have either pumped Skeleton Warrior and Skeleton Mastery
(creating a Skelliemancer), or pumped the Bone tree, including Bone Prison
(so you can contain the Ancients), and Bone Spirit/Spear so you can hurt
'em.

I only have experience with a Skelliemancer (a variant thereoff), and
Ancients in _any_ difficult are a piece of cake.

Regards,

Patrick.

Musty

2006-01-03 03:23:55 UTC

Post by Patrick Vervoorn

Where did you put your other skill points? Maxing Golem Mastery and the
Fire Golem creates a Golem-mancer, and Golems are notoriously weak
summons, even if you max 'em.

I only maxed out Mastery (to make my Fire Golem have long health). I only
have 1 skill point in the Golem. Other things:
- Maxed out bone spirit
- Maxed out corpse explosion
- Couple of points in amplify damage
- 8 revives

So far I have done pretty well, but I am stuck on this particular mission
since my Merc gets killed very quickly. Basically my approach is:

- Golem and revives act as meat shields
- Merc kills a monster or two
- I do corpse explosion to finish the rest

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
You should have either pumped Skeleton Warrior and Skeleton Mastery
(creating a Skelliemancer), or pumped the Bone tree, including Bone Prison
(so you can contain the Ancients), and Bone Spirit/Spear so you can hurt
'em.

I have several +point items and even then my maxed out bone spirit does very
little in hell mode.

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
I only have experience with a Skelliemancer (a variant thereoff), and
Ancients in _any_ difficult are a piece of cake.

Maybe I need to try a skelliemancer, but it would be a shame to re-start
after getting to lvl83.

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
Regards,
Patrick.

Bingain

2006-01-03 06:19:15 UTC

Post by Musty
I only maxed out Mastery (to make my Fire Golem have long health). I only
- Maxed out bone spirit
- Maxed out corpse explosion
- Couple of points in amplify damage
- 8 revives
So far I have done pretty well, but I am stuck on this particular mission

Try this:

Find your way to Arreats Summit, open a TP in front of the
entrance. Go to River of Flame in Act4, and (hopefully) find
some Urdars to revive. Once you have six to eight reviveds, get
the hell out of there fast via WP and use TP to get back to
Arreats Summit entrance. You have a couple minutes on your
reviveds and hopefully that will do it.

If you don't see Urdars in River of Flame, try Crystalline
Passage for Moon Lords, or Act 2 Canyon of Magi for Crushers, or
other monsters that will hit hard and tough to kill. It may take
you many trips. Key is to always have a TP in front of Arreats
Summit entrance to maximize the life span of your reviveds.

If you see other useless monsters on the way, you can always
make a few skelli-mages out of them. They are weak, but you may
need every bit of help you can get. I hope you do have a point
in Decrepify. Use it. If your merc is well equipped and the
Ancients aren't spawn with nasty mods, he may be able to take
down one or two while they are laying eyes on your fire golem.
But I believe you need reviveds to take out the third one first.
The merc is unlikely able to handle three of them at once.

It is a tough build for this mission, but since you're already
there, it's worth giving it some final shots.

Bing

Patrick Vervoorn

2006-01-03 17:13:45 UTC

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
Where did you put your other skill points? Maxing Golem Mastery and the
Fire Golem creates a Golem-mancer, and Golems are notoriously weak
summons, even if you max 'em.

I only maxed out Mastery (to make my Fire Golem have long health). I only
- Maxed out bone spirit
- Maxed out corpse explosion
- Couple of points in amplify damage
- 8 revives
So far I have done pretty well, but I am stuck on this particular mission

Well, see the other post for people giving you (very) good advice on how
to, perhaps, tackle The Ancients with your current build. I'll spend a few
words on what you could have (perhaps) done differently...

The reason you survived up till now is probably because CE is such a
powerfull skill; in my opinion it's worth maxing it. Maxing Golem Mastery
was, unfortunately, not a good thing to do: golems will never be killing
machines, however much points you put in their synergies. Also, keep in
mind you can recast a Golem when it dies, so who cares whether or not it
has long health?

Post by Musty
- Golem and revives act as meat shields
- Merc kills a monster or two
- I do corpse explosion to finish the rest

This works, more or less, but works even better with maxed skellies and
skeleton mastery.

I have several +point items and even then my maxed out bone spirit does very
little in hell mode.

That's because a real Bonemancer also puts lots of points in the Bone
Spirit Synergies, and then it starts dealing a lot of damage, even in Hell
mode. Basic tactic with that is: Bone Prison/Bone Wall enemies, spam bone
spirits/bone spears, and when bodies drop, CE them. Repeat if/when
necessary.

Post by Patrick Vervoorn
I only have experience with a Skelliemancer (a variant thereoff), and
Ancients in _any_ difficult are a piece of cake.

Maybe I need to try a skelliemancer, but it would be a shame to re-start
after getting to lvl83.

Do you have any spare skill points left to spend? Regardless, this build
isn't too shabby apparently, since you managed to survive until the Hell
Ancients. This is usually a showstopper for about any build, so don't feel
too bad.

Regards,

Patrick.

David Simmons

2006-01-03 08:31:19 UTC

Hey Musty,

As much as you may not want to start another character, that may be what's
necessary. Hell is Hell, as you've already discovered, and the Ancients in
Hell are a tricky and sometimes downright punishing trio of torture.

My advice would be to start another necro (not that you have to abandon the
one you have) and max these skills:

Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well!
Skeleton Mastery - See above
Corpse Explosion - By far, the best Necromancer skill, max it and watch them
fall like dominoes in an earthquake. When you have CE (Corpse Explosion)
maxed, all you need is one dead body and the rest is history. Once you
start to spam that baby across the battlefield the baddies fall like flies
before a can of raid. It's an experience that will make you cackle like a
madman, relishing in your unstoppable powers!

These skills are absolutes if you want to feel even remotely comfortable
strolling through Hell. Next, instead of the A2 Defensive merc, you should
try the Might one. This aura increase the damage your skellies deal out,
and in Hell, it's all about damaging them and reducing the damage to you.
Maxed skellies with the Might aura accomplish both. They put a wall between
you and the baddies and they do more damage with the boost from Might.

After that, well, preferences vary. The Summonmancer has very few (if any)
decent attack skills. IMHO, he's a very passive character, which is why I
like him so much (fewer mouse clicks per second so my fingers don't cramp
up!). I've tried Bone Spirit but it just doesn't do enough damage to be
viable in Hell, especially against the Ancients and other bosses! As for
the other skills:

Revives - They can be helpful but are often tiresome to keep reviving (they
only last 3 minutes or so), I'd recommend one point to start, then wait to
see if you find any + to skills gear, which will give you some extra hands.
However, I would hold off on this skill until much later, as it has a quite
few prerequisite skill points to access.

Summon Resist - Worth a few points if you don't have + to skills gear as
Hell deals a LOT of elemental damage and your skellies will take the brunt
of everything.

Clay Golem & Golem Mastery - 1 point each, it may seem spare in the
beginning but you need to be sure Skells, Skell Mastery, and CE (Corpse
Explosion) are maxed. Again, + to skills should provide the boosts you need
here.

One of the most important things to remember is to give your A2 NM Might
merc the best gear you can find, i.e. with the weapon dealing the highest
damage and having life leech, the armor having the highest defense and DR
(Damage Reduction), and the helm providing even more life leech since he
will head directly into the fray and will (hopefully!) provide you with the
first corpse you need to start the dominoes falling with CE!

As for curses, Amp Damage and Decrepify are totally necessary. Dim Vision
can help against those damned pesky ranged attackers (especially in Hell!),
but I've never found anything else to be worthwhile.

Good luck!

Dave S.

Musty

2006-01-04 03:01:26 UTC

"David Simmons" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:rDquf.5417$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
...

Post by David Simmons
Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well!
Skeleton Mastery - See above

...

Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Thx
Musty.

~misfit~

2006-01-04 08:27:23 UTC

Post by Musty
...

Post by David Simmons
Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well!
Skeleton Mastery - See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeletons. Mages are a waste of time, just the one point later so you can
get revives *after* you've maxed Raise Skeleton and Skeleton Mastery.

I have about 5 necros on the current ladder and about 8 on the last. :-)

--
~misfit~

Mickey

2006-01-04 17:27:12 UTC

Post by Musty
...

Post by David Simmons
Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well!
Skeleton Mastery - See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeleton mages are more or less useless, unless you have skeletons, skeleton
mastery maxed and a host of revives.

Mickey

Brian

2006-01-04 23:01:20 UTC

Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well! Skeleton Mastery
- See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeleton mages are more or less useless, unless you have skeletons,

They're more or less useless even then.

Mages stop when they fix on a target, and fire, fire, fire until their
target is dead, or they are. If you run off, the mages might well
evaporate as soon as teleport to you. Whilst standing and firing, firing,
firing, the BLOCK THE PATH they are on, and the warriors and revives
behind then cannot cannot cannot get past.

Post by Mickey
skeleton mastery maxed and a host of revives.
Mickey

Mickey

2006-01-04 23:28:38 UTC

Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well! Skeleton Mastery
- See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeleton mages are more or less useless, unless you have skeletons,

They're more or less useless even then.
Mages stop when they fix on a target, and fire, fire, fire until their
target is dead, or they are. If you run off, the mages might well
evaporate as soon as teleport to you. Whilst standing and firing, firing,
firing, the BLOCK THE PATH they are on, and the warriors and revives
behind then cannot cannot cannot get past.

Which is why they made teleport, teleport, teleport :)

Mickey

Post by Brian

Post by Mickey
skeleton mastery maxed and a host of revives.
Mickey

Brian

2006-01-05 02:03:52 UTC

Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well! Skeleton
Mastery - See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeleton mages are more or less useless, unless you have skeletons,

They're more or less useless even then.
Mages stop when they fix on a target, and fire, fire, fire until their
target is dead, or they are. If you run off, the mages might well
evaporate as soon as teleport to you. Whilst standing and firing,
firing, firing, the BLOCK THE PATH they are on, and the warriors and
revives behind then cannot cannot cannot get past.

Which is why they made teleport, teleport, teleport :)

I've had uniformly bad results from teleport, unless I have a single
target. The Minions all get (and stay) stuck in a clump, at least until
all revives time out. This also happens coming down stairs.

Mickey

2006-01-05 14:29:59 UTC

Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well! Skeleton
Mastery - See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeleton mages are more or less useless, unless you have skeletons,

They're more or less useless even then.
Mages stop when they fix on a target, and fire, fire, fire until their
target is dead, or they are. If you run off, the mages might well
evaporate as soon as teleport to you. Whilst standing and firing,
firing, firing, the BLOCK THE PATH they are on, and the warriors and
revives behind then cannot cannot cannot get past.

Which is why they made teleport, teleport, teleport :)

Take ONE step away from them and they scatter like leaves in the wind.

Mickey

Brian

2006-01-06 01:47:10 UTC

Post by Brian
I've had uniformly bad results from teleport, unless I have a single
target. The Minions all get (and stay) stuck in a clump, at least until
all revives time out. This also happens coming down stairs.

Take ONE step away from them and they scatter like leaves in the wind.

No they don't. Unless what you have revived are Ghosts. Those are FUN.
they stack on one another without any drawback, and never get stuck in
clumps. Crushers and yeti and the like, moon lords, blood lords and the
like, they're stuck together until I tp to town (because I'm facing all
the bad guys alone). I died several times that way, and I'm in HardCore.

~misfit~

2006-01-06 06:12:49 UTC

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
I've had uniformly bad results from teleport, unless I have a single
target. The Minions all get (and stay) stuck in a clump, at least
until all revives time out. This also happens coming down stairs.

Take ONE step away from them and they scatter like leaves in the wind.

No they don't. Unless what you have revived are Ghosts. Those are
FUN. they stack on one another without any drawback, and never get
stuck in clumps. Crushers and yeti and the like, moon lords, blood
lords and the like, they're stuck together until I tp to town
(because I'm facing all the bad guys alone). I died several times
that way, and I'm in HardCore.

I've had them stay in a lump sometimes as you describe but not for long if
you move off a bit, then come back to them if you're being attacked. Can be
a bit annoying, more so in HC but I certainly don't have to TP to get them
to spread out. Usually they only stay in a bunch if they have targets to
attck where they are or if they have no targets to attack in the immediate
vicinity (to prompt them to move). Run off and bring something back for them
to attack if that's the case.

--
~misfit~

Mickey

2006-01-06 22:39:59 UTC

Post by Brian

Take ONE step away from them and they scatter like leaves in the wind.

And yet, this never happens to me when I teleport, unless I refuse to move
myself.

Mickey

freemont

2006-01-07 06:01:58 UTC

Post by Brian
I've had uniformly bad results from teleport, unless I have a single
target. The Minions all get (and stay) stuck in a clump, at least
until all revives time out. This also happens coming down stairs.

Take ONE step away from them and they scatter like leaves in the wind.

And yet, this never happens to me when I teleport, unless I refuse to move
myself.
Mickey

Yeah, it seems to me that the revives and skellies all clump together when
you teleport, but if you teleport on top of a critter he takes hits from
all of them. And if you teleport to an empty space, they still clump but
spread out when you make your move.

I've gotten into the habit of hitting "T" to teleport on right click, then
immediately hitting whatever key for whatever spell I want to use then-
while simultaneously running away. They always spread out.

--
"Because all you of Earth are idiots!"
¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·-> freemont© <-·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯

Mickey

2006-01-07 20:30:29 UTC

Post by Brian
I've had uniformly bad results from teleport, unless I have a single
target. The Minions all get (and stay) stuck in a clump, at least
until all revives time out. This also happens coming down stairs.

Take ONE step away from them and they scatter like leaves in the wind.

And yet, this never happens to me when I teleport, unless I refuse to move
myself.
Mickey

Yeah, it seems to me that the revives and skellies all clump together when
you teleport, but if you teleport on top of a critter he takes hits from
all of them. And if you teleport to an empty space, they still clump but
spread out when you make your move.
I've gotten into the habit of hitting "T" to teleport on right click, then
immediately hitting whatever key for whatever spell I want to use then-
while simultaneously running away. They always spread out.

Same here. I will usually teleport, cast AD and step back and enjoy the show
:)

Mickey

FuManchu

2006-01-06 02:24:41 UTC

Post by Musty
...

Post by David Simmons
Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well!
Skeleton Mastery - See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeleton mages are more or less useless, unless you have skeletons, skeleton
mastery maxed and a host of revives.

Have you ever tried maxing mages and either giving your merc an
infinity runeword weapon (or making an iron golem out of it, heh) and
cursing with lower resist? I've never even seen an infinity, but I've
often wondered if this would work.

Mickey

2006-01-06 22:41:04 UTC

Post by FuManchu

Post by Musty
...

Post by David Simmons
Skeletons - They are your protection, feed them well!
Skeleton Mastery - See above

...
Should I be putting points into skeletons or skeleton mages, or a mix??

Skeleton mages are more or less useless, unless you have skeletons, skeleton
mastery maxed and a host of revives.

If I want to do elemental damage that badly, I'd pump up my poison nova :)

Mickey

Orion Ryder

2006-01-03 16:12:36 UTC

Hey there!

Bingie (Bingain) has a good approach. Revives and Golem will keep them
occupied while the merc takes on one. Decrep them. Keep recasting it
between your Bone Spirits. The slower they move the better. Keep small
purples and big purples. Also litter the ground with some purples. Make
sure you do everything you can to keep the merc alive. Pump him with
purps as he takes damage - small for anything above 50%, Bigs for
anything below 50%. Once one of the Ancients goes down 75% of your work
is done. When the second one goes down 99% of your work is done,
provided the last one is not Fire Immune. If he is change to clay golem
and the golem will help the merc finish him off. Pick up potions as
needed. You will have to move fast from getting those revives to
activating the Ancients. Speed is of the essence. Just make sure your
revives are obtained close to the waypoint so yo ucan get back quick
and without them disappearing.

Godspeed dude.

Orion

Musty

2006-01-04 02:53:55 UTC

Thanks for all the responses. I am going to try a few things. Again, thanks
for taking the time!

Mickey

2006-01-04 14:15:03 UTC

Post by Musty
Thanks for all the responses. I am going to try a few things. Again, thanks
for taking the time!

I must say this entire thread is a first for me. From my playing experience
(not to be taken lightly, given the 15 level 99 chars and 57 others over
level 90), the old men have been the one place above all other places that a
necro shines. It has never taken me more than about 30 seconds to kill them
in hell mode, and I suspect I could do it quite easily with a level 50
necro. Then again, I can't imagine building a non-PD necro that wasn't
toting an army along for the ride.

Mickey

Hefatso

2006-01-05 02:42:14 UTC

Post by Musty
Thanks for all the responses. I am going to try a few things. Again, thanks
for taking the time!

By the way, when talking about the skills listed above, it's easiest
to pump raise skeleton until you have 5 skellies, then pump skelly
mastery. Then come back and pump raise skelly to max. Along the way,
put 1 pt into the other skills you want. (Decrep comes in handy for
act bosses, so try to get 1 pt there early, or buy a wand with decrep
for your battles with Durial & Meph.)

Finally, finish maxing the other skills you may want. (CE, Summon
Resist, etc)

I did an experiment where I noted that a low level char (lvl 11 or
less) can easily shop for +3 skelly wands in act1 or act1. This could
come in handy when starting a new 'mancer.

Patrick Vervoorn

2006-01-05 09:05:35 UTC

Post by Hefatso

Post by Musty
Thanks for all the responses. I am going to try a few things. Again, thanks
for taking the time!

Actually, I've tried it all possible ways (pump SM before RS, RS before
SM, or both at the same time), but there's not much real difference. The
last time, I pumped Raise Skeleton all the way until it was maxed, then
wernt for SM. Worked quite nicely, perhaps better than the mixed option.
Keep in mind that putting points in Raise Skeleton also boosts their
life/attack/etc, and you get another skeleton every 3 points after you
reach a certain threshold: more skeletons certainly don't hurt.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter. ;)

Post by Hefatso
put 1 pt into the other skills you want. (Decrep comes in handy for
act bosses, so try to get 1 pt there early, or buy a wand with decrep
for your battles with Durial & Meph.)

You still need to be clvl30 to use such a wand, and that's going to be a
bit tough for Duriel, doable for Mephisto, but when you're really going
for (i.e. self-rushing quite easy to do with a Skelliemancer) it can
happen you're below 30 when you take down Normal Diablo. ;)

Post by Hefatso
Finally, finish maxing the other skills you may want. (CE, Summon
Resist, etc)

I would advise against maxing Summon Resists: 1 point, boosted by +skills,
is all you really need. CE should, in my opinion, be maxed, but then
again, plenty of people are driving necros with a 1 point CE and survive
just fine.

Post by Hefatso
I did an experiment where I noted that a low level char (lvl 11 or
less) can easily shop for +3 skelly wands in act1 or act1. This could
come in handy when starting a new 'mancer.

Yup. Some nice stuff can be bought at the lower clvl's which will become
near-unavailable at higher clvls...

Regards,

Patrick.

Alex Holtz

2006-01-05 23:30:08 UTC

Do not give up. You are doing the right thing in focusing of what you
can do instead of listening to people who said of what you should have
done.

Do as Bingain and Orion Ryder said, and the following as well:
Give your merc as much Crushing Blow as possible. For example:
Guillame's Face (set item Winged Helm), Obedience (Runeword polearm),
Strength (Runeword polearm or spear), Duress (Runeword armor). Keep
your merc alive at all costs.

Use Clay Golem instead of Fire Golem for this battle with the Ancient.
While Fire is better for normal play, Clay is the best for boss battles
because of its slowing effect.

If possible, avoid nasty modifiers such as Might or Fanaticism, Cursed,
and Extra Strong, by casting TP and clicking the altas again.

Note the Ancients behavior. Since my copy of the game is in French, I
will not even attempt to name them to avoid possible mistranslation. I
will call them WW, Throw, and Leap. WW likes to attack the closest to
him, if surrounded he's very likely to attack the one who hits the
hardest. Throw likes to attack closest to him and will run away when
being approached by an opponent. Leap likes to attack your character.
Knowing this, I'd suggest to keep WW busy with your Clay Golem, he
won't pose any problems, as long as you don't stand in straight line
connecting him and your Clay or merc. Merc will engage whomever
closest to him. Since Throw always stands far away and Leap always
chases you, this means that Merc is very likely to engage WW. The key
is then to run around your Revives so that they get free shots at Leap
while he tries to hurt you. Some of your Revives will chase the other
two Ancients and you can't really avoid this if you don't have Teleport
(available from charges). Hopefully, using Bingain's approach, your
Revives last long enough to decimate Leap or WW or even both. Once one
of them dies, your merc should be able to kill the next one easily.
Leave Throw last, his attacks are very easy to dodge manually. Don't
forget to continually cast Decrepify throughout the battle.

Good luck.

FuManchu

2006-01-06 02:21:30 UTC