Discussion:
Breath of the dying in a bow?
(too old to reply)
Peg Leg Pete
2006-08-22 07:30:03 UTC
Permalink
When I looked at this rune word the first few times, it didn't occure
to me that this might work in a bow.. Seems almost too good to be
true that a strafer could use this... .

Comments?
Shiflet
2006-08-22 11:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peg Leg Pete
When I looked at this rune word the first few times, it didn't occure
to me that this might work in a bow.. Seems almost too good to be
true that a strafer could use this... .
It's true that it CAN be used in a bow...it's just that most people don't,
as people consider it a waste to make a runeword that uses Zod in anything
other than an eth weapon. And since bows cannot be eth...
Post by Peg Leg Pete
Comments?
Mark (newsgroups)
2006-08-22 11:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiflet
Post by Peg Leg Pete
When I looked at this rune word the first few times, it didn't occure
to me that this might work in a bow.. Seems almost too good to be
true that a strafer could use this... .
It's true that it CAN be used in a bow...it's just that most people don't,
as people consider it a waste to make a runeword that uses Zod in anything
other than an eth weapon. And since bows cannot be eth...
That strikes me as a strange argument when all high runes seem to have
roughly the same value.
~misfit~
2006-08-22 11:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark (newsgroups)
Post by Shiflet
Post by Peg Leg Pete
When I looked at this rune word the first few times, it didn't
occure to me that this might work in a bow.. Seems almost too
good to be true that a strafer could use this... .
It's true that it CAN be used in a bow...it's just that most people
don't, as people consider it a waste to make a runeword that uses
Zod in anything other than an eth weapon. And since bows cannot be
eth...
That strikes me as a strange argument when all high runes seem to have
roughly the same value.
It's not about the value of the runes, it's about the extra 50% damage....

In fact Zod is one of the 'lower-priced' high runes. BotD is a relatively
cheap runeword in comparison to Faith, enigma etc.

Strange but true.
--
Shaun.
Mark (newsgroups)
2006-08-22 12:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark (newsgroups)
Post by Shiflet
Post by Peg Leg Pete
When I looked at this rune word the first few times, it didn't
occure to me that this might work in a bow.. Seems almost too
good to be true that a strafer could use this... .
It's true that it CAN be used in a bow...it's just that most people
don't, as people consider it a waste to make a runeword that uses
Zod in anything other than an eth weapon. And since bows cannot be
eth...
That strikes me as a strange argument when all high runes seem to have
roughly the same value.
It's not about the value of the runes, it's about the extra 50% damage....
I realise that, and if the question was:

Is a bow a good choice for BotD over say a Beserker Axe?

.. then the answer Shiftlet gave would make sense to me. As it is, I
don't think the OPs question was answered sufficiently. I don't have
any experience with making high runewords, let alone making them in
bows, but if it's any help to the OP I never hear of people making
BotDs in bows. I believe Faith is the runeword of choice for a Strafer
bow. But, looking at the bonuses of BotD, I'm sure it would make a
reasonable weapon anyway (despite apparently wasting the indestructable
mod from Zod).
Shiflet
2006-08-22 12:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark (newsgroups)
That strikes me as a strange argument when all high runes seem to have
roughly the same value.
Eth weapons have a 50% higher BASE damage. That is in turn boosted by the ED
on the runeword itself. So if someone is going to use a Zod in a runeword,
they generally prefer them in eth weapons, so that they get a MUCH more
damaging weapon. It's not about cost, it's about "I can make an
indestructible weapon, so do I a)make it in a bow and get a max damage not
much higher than that of a Windforce, or b)make it in an ethereal
maul/collossus sword/whatever and get a max damage in the range of
800-1300."

To give you a comparison, let's say you make a BotD in a hydra bow, and roll
a perfect 400% ED. The bow now has a max damage of ~340. Now, let's say you
do the same thing in an eth collossus blade. That gives a max of ~865 if
wielded 2 handed, 490 even if wielded 1 handed. That's a max of 150 damage
higher, even if wielded 1 handed which allows use of a shield. Likewise,
made in an eth zerker axe you get a max of ~535, and made in something like
a thunder maul, you get a max of 1300+. And barring another runeword in an
eth item or an eth elite unique weapon, NO 1 handed weapon will ever have
listed damage that high. While OTOH, a Windforce at level 90 will deal ~510
damage and a Buriza will deal around 380, both more than the BotD will, and
even Eaglehorn will deal 290-300 or so, which is nearly as much. Since so
many b.netters are enthralled by big numbers, when it comes down to making a
choice, they're usually going to pick the biggest number weapon they can
get.
Mark (newsgroups)
2006-08-22 12:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiflet
Post by Mark (newsgroups)
That strikes me as a strange argument when all high runes seem to have
roughly the same value.
Eth weapons have a 50% higher BASE damage. That is in turn boosted by the ED
on the runeword itself. So if someone is going to use a Zod in a runeword,
they generally prefer them in eth weapons, so that they get a MUCH more
damaging weapon. It's not about cost, it's about "I can make an
indestructible weapon, so do I a)make it in a bow and get a max damage not
much higher than that of a Windforce, or b)make it in an ethereal
maul/collossus sword/whatever and get a max damage in the range of
800-1300."
To give you a comparison, let's say you make a BotD in a hydra bow, and roll
a perfect 400% ED. The bow now has a max damage of ~340. Now, let's say you
do the same thing in an eth collossus blade. That gives a max of ~865 if
wielded 2 handed, 490 even if wielded 1 handed. That's a max of 150 damage
higher, even if wielded 1 handed which allows use of a shield. Likewise,
made in an eth zerker axe you get a max of ~535, and made in something like
a thunder maul, you get a max of 1300+. And barring another runeword in an
eth item or an eth elite unique weapon, NO 1 handed weapon will ever have
listed damage that high. While OTOH, a Windforce at level 90 will deal ~510
damage and a Buriza will deal around 380, both more than the BotD will, and
even Eaglehorn will deal 290-300 or so, which is nearly as much. Since so
many b.netters are enthralled by big numbers, when it comes down to making a
choice, they're usually going to pick the biggest number weapon they can
get.
Thanks for all that, and while I pretty much knew it already it will
probably help the OP. I apologise for being finicky over your first
answer. It's just that the OP didn't say he now had a Zod and wanted to
use it in a weapon, he just wanted to know if BotD was good for a bow.
It is, but it isn't the best and is rather a waste of _a_ high rune,
not a waste of a Zod in particular.

All IMHO off course.
EvilBill
2006-08-22 15:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiflet
Post by Mark (newsgroups)
That strikes me as a strange argument when all high runes seem to
have roughly the same value.
Eth weapons have a 50% higher BASE damage. That is in turn boosted by
the ED on the runeword itself. So if someone is going to use a Zod in
a runeword, they generally prefer them in eth weapons, so that they
get a MUCH more damaging weapon. It's not about cost, it's about "I
can make an indestructible weapon, so do I a)make it in a bow and get
a max damage not much higher than that of a Windforce, or b)make it
in an ethereal maul/collossus sword/whatever and get a max damage in
the range of 800-1300."
To give you a comparison, let's say you make a BotD in a hydra bow,
and roll a perfect 400% ED. The bow now has a max damage of ~340.
Now, let's say you do the same thing in an eth collossus blade. That
gives a max of ~865 if wielded 2 handed, 490 even if wielded 1
handed. That's a max of 150 damage higher, even if wielded 1 handed
which allows use of a shield.
Or a second BotD colossus blade ;)
Post by Shiflet
Likewise, made in an eth zerker axe you
get a max of ~535, and made in something like a thunder maul, you get
a max of 1300+. And barring another runeword in an eth item or an eth
elite unique weapon, NO 1 handed weapon will ever have listed damage
that high. While OTOH, a Windforce at level 90 will deal ~510 damage
and a Buriza will deal around 380, both more than the BotD will, and
even Eaglehorn will deal 290-300 or so, which is nearly as much.
Since so many b.netters are enthralled by big numbers, when it comes
down to making a choice, they're usually going to pick the biggest
number weapon they can get.
Ergo, if you're a bowazon, use Faith or a Windy or whatever; alternatively,
build a spearazon around an eth BotD war pike and give your Rogue merc the
Faith bow ;)
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Web: http://www.evilbill.org.uk
Mickey
2006-08-22 22:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvilBill
Post by Shiflet
Post by Mark (newsgroups)
That strikes me as a strange argument when all high runes seem to
have roughly the same value.
Eth weapons have a 50% higher BASE damage. That is in turn boosted by
the ED on the runeword itself. So if someone is going to use a Zod in
a runeword, they generally prefer them in eth weapons, so that they
get a MUCH more damaging weapon. It's not about cost, it's about "I
can make an indestructible weapon, so do I a)make it in a bow and get
a max damage not much higher than that of a Windforce, or b)make it
in an ethereal maul/collossus sword/whatever and get a max damage in
the range of 800-1300."
To give you a comparison, let's say you make a BotD in a hydra bow,
and roll a perfect 400% ED. The bow now has a max damage of ~340.
Now, let's say you do the same thing in an eth collossus blade. That
gives a max of ~865 if wielded 2 handed, 490 even if wielded 1
handed. That's a max of 150 damage higher, even if wielded 1 handed
which allows use of a shield.
Or a second BotD colossus blade ;)
Post by Shiflet
Likewise, made in an eth zerker axe you
get a max of ~535, and made in something like a thunder maul, you get
a max of 1300+. And barring another runeword in an eth item or an eth
elite unique weapon, NO 1 handed weapon will ever have listed damage
that high. While OTOH, a Windforce at level 90 will deal ~510 damage
and a Buriza will deal around 380, both more than the BotD will, and
even Eaglehorn will deal 290-300 or so, which is nearly as much.
Since so many b.netters are enthralled by big numbers, when it comes
down to making a choice, they're usually going to pick the biggest
number weapon they can get.
Ergo, if you're a bowazon, use Faith or a Windy or whatever; alternatively,
build a spearazon around an eth BotD war pike and give your Rogue merc the
Faith bow ;)
Works nicely for a barb as well. HackEmandWhackEm has a Xena with a
faith bow, Dream hat and Dragon armor. Along with the Might aura he
gives her from his LW, she packs one HELL of a punch.

Mickey
EvilBill
2006-08-23 16:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
Post by EvilBill
Ergo, if you're a bowazon, use Faith or a Windy or whatever;
alternatively, build a spearazon around an eth BotD war pike and
give your Rogue merc the Faith bow ;)
Works nicely for a barb as well. HackEmandWhackEm has a Xena with a
faith bow, Dream hat and Dragon armor. Along with the Might aura he
gives her from his LW, she packs one HELL of a punch.
Nice :D
Euyfura recently swapped her Edge for a Faith... she still only has a
shaftstop as her armour, though, which is probably why it's still hard to
keep her alive ;) I have a 3-socket dusk shroud in my stash, mind, so I can
always raid my rune stash and see if I can make her a Duress or Gloom :)
Euyfura's hat is a Duskdeep, although I'm sure I have a Tal's fugly
somewhere which would definitely be a much better choice. <g>
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Web: http://www.evilbill.org.uk
Cavadure
2006-08-23 16:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvilBill
Post by Mickey
Post by EvilBill
Ergo, if you're a bowazon, use Faith or a Windy or whatever;
alternatively, build a spearazon around an eth BotD war pike and
give your Rogue merc the Faith bow ;)
Works nicely for a barb as well. HackEmandWhackEm has a Xena with a
faith bow, Dream hat and Dragon armor. Along with the Might aura he
gives her from his LW, she packs one HELL of a punch.
Nice :D
Euyfura recently swapped her Edge for a Faith... she still only has a
shaftstop as her armour, though, which is probably why it's still hard to
keep her alive ;) I have a 3-socket dusk shroud in my stash, mind, so I can
always raid my rune stash and see if I can make her a Duress or Gloom :)
Euyfura's hat is a Duskdeep, although I'm sure I have a Tal's fugly
somewhere which would definitely be a much better choice. <g>
Cava_Ibirius has a rogue merc as well. Very hard to keep her alive.
Equipment Amn'd Kuko, Tal's hat, and Rockfleece. The problem seems to
be she likes to stay in the thick of things during retreats.
EvilBill
2006-08-23 17:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cavadure
Post by EvilBill
Nice :D
Euyfura recently swapped her Edge for a Faith... she still only has a
shaftstop as her armour, though, which is probably why it's still
hard to keep her alive ;) I have a 3-socket dusk shroud in my stash,
mind, so I can always raid my rune stash and see if I can make her a
Duress or Gloom :) Euyfura's hat is a Duskdeep, although I'm sure I
have a Tal's fugly somewhere which would definitely be a much better
choice. <g>
Cava_Ibirius has a rogue merc as well. Very hard to keep her alive.
Equipment Amn'd Kuko, Tal's hat, and Rockfleece. The problem seems to
be she likes to stay in the thick of things during retreats.
Yeah. They have no trouble killing things with the right gear (very useful
against PIs <g>) but they don't like to run away ;)

Euyfura now has my bowazon's Tal's fugly on extended loan, which maxes her
resists in Hell and gives her a nice amount of leech too. :)
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Web: http://www.evilbill.org.uk
Peg Leg Pete
2006-08-23 17:51:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:34:25 +0100, "EvilBill" <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

Thanks everyone. THat was a great response and I learned a lot.
Faith word in a 3 skill Grand Matron bow it is then.

Again, nicely and courteously done.

Thanks,
Peg
EvilBill
2006-08-23 19:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peg Leg Pete
Thanks everyone. THat was a great response and I learned a lot.
Faith word in a 3 skill Grand Matron bow it is then.
Nice choice, enjoy :D
Post by Peg Leg Pete
Again, nicely and courteously done.
Thanks,
Peg
We're like that in here :)
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Web: http://www.evilbill.org.uk
~misfit~
2006-08-24 00:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvilBill
Post by Cavadure
Post by EvilBill
Nice :D
Euyfura recently swapped her Edge for a Faith... she still only
has a shaftstop as her armour, though, which is probably why it's
still hard to keep her alive ;) I have a 3-socket dusk shroud in
my stash, mind, so I can always raid my rune stash and see if I
can make her a Duress or Gloom :) Euyfura's hat is a Duskdeep,
although I'm sure I have a Tal's fugly somewhere which would
definitely be a much better choice. <g>
Cava_Ibirius has a rogue merc as well. Very hard to keep her alive.
Equipment Amn'd Kuko, Tal's hat, and Rockfleece. The problem seems
to be she likes to stay in the thick of things during retreats.
Yeah. They have no trouble killing things with the right gear (very
useful against PIs <g>) but they don't like to run away ;)
Euyfura now has my bowazon's Tal's fugly on extended loan, which
maxes her resists in Hell and gives her a nice amount of leech too. :)
Sounds like Euyfura has the same gear as ChillBill-II's merc, Fugly,
Shaftstop and Faith Great Bow. (+1 skills, originally made for Shady's
Strafer, then I had another attempt and made a +2 for her).

If you need another Fugly I have a couple somewhere, give me a shout if you
see me online, I'll look one up. :-)
--
Shaun.
EvilBill
2006-08-24 13:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by EvilBill
Post by Cavadure
Post by EvilBill
Nice :D
Euyfura recently swapped her Edge for a Faith... she still only
has a shaftstop as her armour, though, which is probably why it's
still hard to keep her alive ;) I have a 3-socket dusk shroud in
my stash, mind, so I can always raid my rune stash and see if I
can make her a Duress or Gloom :) Euyfura's hat is a Duskdeep,
although I'm sure I have a Tal's fugly somewhere which would
definitely be a much better choice. <g>
Cava_Ibirius has a rogue merc as well. Very hard to keep her alive.
Equipment Amn'd Kuko, Tal's hat, and Rockfleece. The problem seems
to be she likes to stay in the thick of things during retreats.
Yeah. They have no trouble killing things with the right gear (very
useful against PIs <g>) but they don't like to run away ;)
Euyfura now has my bowazon's Tal's fugly on extended loan, which
maxes her resists in Hell and gives her a nice amount of leech too. :)
Sounds like Euyfura has the same gear as ChillBill-II's merc, Fugly,
Shaftstop and Faith Great Bow. (+1 skills, originally made for Shady's
Strafer, then I had another attempt and made a +2 for her).
Now she has Fugly, Gloom Dusk Shroud and Faith. ;) (The Faith is a cedar
bow, simply because it was the only 4-socket bow I've yet found. A GMB
would've been much better...)
Post by ~misfit~
If you need another Fugly I have a couple somewhere, give me a shout
if you see me online, I'll look one up. :-)
Common as muck, they are. I'm sure a dozen or so Meph or Countess runs in
Hell will net one :)
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Web: http://www.evilbill.org.uk
Patrick Vervoorn
2006-08-24 14:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvilBill
Now she has Fugly, Gloom Dusk Shroud and Faith. ;) (The Faith is a cedar
bow, simply because it was the only 4-socket bow I've yet found. A GMB
would've been much better...)
That'd have been a mistake: an Act 1 Rogue is _NOT_ an Amazon, so she
can't wield an Amazon-only bow. (I am still assuming you're talking about
Act 1 Merc gear here...)

If it's max physical damage you want, make a Faith in a Crusader Bow or a
Hydra Bow; both have the same average damage, but the Crusader Bow has
(much) lower requirements.

Other builds want the Act 1 Rogue to provide the Fanaticism aura, and have
her throw out as many cold arrows as possible (to freeze/slow down
enemies) so they opt for Faith in the fastest Elite bows: either a Blade
Bow or a Great Bow (31 vs 32 average damage).

I'm frankly surprised you made Faith (a runeword which requires no less
than 2 HR's) in a lowly Cedar Bow: it's Exceptional, not Elite, and not
even the fastest in it's class, nor the highest damage one. I suppose the
abundance of HR's makes one a bit less caring on what you plop 'em in?

[Tal's Mask]
Post by EvilBill
Common as muck, they are. I'm sure a dozen or so Meph or Countess runs in
Hell will net one :)
Yup. The logical upgrade would perhaps be Andariel's Face, with either a
Ral in, or a magical/rare jewel with 30 fire res and other useful mods.

Regards,

Patrick.
EvilBill
2006-08-24 15:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Vervoorn
Post by EvilBill
Now she has Fugly, Gloom Dusk Shroud and Faith. ;) (The Faith is a
cedar bow, simply because it was the only 4-socket bow I've yet
found. A GMB would've been much better...)
That'd have been a mistake: an Act 1 Rogue is _NOT_ an Amazon, so she
can't wield an Amazon-only bow. (I am still assuming you're talking
about Act 1 Merc gear here...)
Brainfart. LOL :)
Post by Patrick Vervoorn
If it's max physical damage you want, make a Faith in a Crusader Bow
or a Hydra Bow; both have the same average damage, but the Crusader
Bow has (much) lower requirements.
Other builds want the Act 1 Rogue to provide the Fanaticism aura, and
have her throw out as many cold arrows as possible (to freeze/slow
down enemies) so they opt for Faith in the fastest Elite bows: either
a Blade Bow or a Great Bow (31 vs 32 average damage).
*nods* If I'd had one, I'd have gone for the Great Bow or a Crusader Bow.
Euyfura would've been in heaven. <g>
Of course, she's not exactly displeased with what she did get. ;)
Post by Patrick Vervoorn
I'm frankly surprised you made Faith (a runeword which requires no
less than 2 HR's) in a lowly Cedar Bow: it's Exceptional, not Elite,
and not even the fastest in it's class, nor the highest damage one. I
suppose the abundance of HR's makes one a bit less caring on what you
plop 'em in?
More that I don't play enough to see an abundance of 4-socket anythings, let
alone 4-socket elite bows, so it was that or nothing *grin*
Post by Patrick Vervoorn
[Tal's Mask]
Post by EvilBill
Common as muck, they are. I'm sure a dozen or so Meph or Countess
runs in Hell will net one :)
Yup. The logical upgrade would perhaps be Andariel's Face, with
either a Ral in, or a magical/rare jewel with 30 fire res and other
useful mods.
Yup, that's a nice hat, that is. Guess SweetSpearGirl will have to cobble
some MF gear together ;)
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Web: http://www.evilbill.org.uk
Patrick Vervoorn
2006-08-24 15:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvilBill
Post by Patrick Vervoorn
Other builds want the Act 1 Rogue to provide the Fanaticism aura, and
have her throw out as many cold arrows as possible (to freeze/slow
down enemies) so they opt for Faith in the fastest Elite bows: either
a Blade Bow or a Great Bow (31 vs 32 average damage).
*nods* If I'd had one, I'd have gone for the Great Bow or a Crusader Bow.
Look at the Arreat Summit: both the Great Bow and the Blade Bow have a max
of 4 sockets, so any one you found in Hell would get 4 from Larzuk. I see
lots and lots of these bows drop in Hell when doing runs there.

The Crusader/Hydra's are a bit more difficult to get since you either need
them to drop exactly right, or have a bit of luck in the cube.
Post by EvilBill
Post by Patrick Vervoorn
I'm frankly surprised you made Faith (a runeword which requires no
less than 2 HR's) in a lowly Cedar Bow: it's Exceptional, not Elite,
and not even the fastest in it's class, nor the highest damage one. I
suppose the abundance of HR's makes one a bit less caring on what you
plop 'em in?
More that I don't play enough to see an abundance of 4-socket anythings, let
alone 4-socket elite bows, so it was that or nothing *grin*
See above, Great and Blade Bows drop by the dozens (so to say) when simply
going through Act 1 Black Marsh on the way to the Countess for
instance.
Post by EvilBill
Post by Patrick Vervoorn
Yup. The logical upgrade would perhaps be Andariel's Face, with
either a Ral in, or a magical/rare jewel with 30 fire res and other
useful mods.
Yup, that's a nice hat, that is. Guess SweetSpearGirl will have to cobble
some MF gear together ;)
I'm sure others can fill you in on the best place to get Andariel's Face
to drop. ;)

Regards,

Patrick.

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